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Re: ONE DOWN , ONE TO GO ! [Re: Moparnut426] #449450
08/12/10 12:23 AM
08/12/10 12:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,880
USA
Ron Silva Offline OP
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Ron Silva  Offline OP
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Definately a Girl.

Funny thing, I have static timed 1000 engines and when I got this engine running it was REALLY acting up. It wanted start hard and did not want to idle, but would run OK and rev OK and all that. I had a hard time because it would not idle. When I FINALLY was able to get the timing light on it, it was at something like 130 deg advanced. [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean]?? Every time I tried to back the timing down it would stall and backfire out the carb??? Totally perplexed I decided to start from scratch and static time it once again............WELL, I THEN discovered that I had two plug wires crossed, AND they happened to be the #1 and the #3....Doh! So I was timing off #3. What are the odds.

Now she just PURRS!


SRT DEMON ONE SEAT
Re: ONE DOWN , ONE TO GO ! [Re: Ron Silva] #449451
08/12/10 12:28 AM
08/12/10 12:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,049
ohio
A
all spooled up Offline
super stock
all spooled up  Offline
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A

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ohio

Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: Ron Silva] #449452
08/12/10 12:53 AM
08/12/10 12:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 798
Houston TX
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GregCon Offline
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Houston TX
I haven't read all the posts, and it's not my place, but aren't those headers very, very small in terms of collector diameter and length?

Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: GregCon] #449453
08/12/10 01:15 AM
08/12/10 01:15 AM
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Houston TX
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GregCon Offline
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I have torqued lots of rod bolts and I think you are doing it the hard way.

Here's my routine, if you want it, keep reading!

1)Lube liberally all surfaces that touch any other surfaces, not just the threads, with ARP lube. It makes a difference in both torque and stretch stability values.

2) Use your dial gauge to measure length with no torque.

3) Remove the gauge, set it aside carefully.

4) Torque the bolts up to about 70 lbs in 10 lbs increments, swapping sides each time. Use a high quality 1/2 drive torque wrench.

5) Recheck length with gauge and then remove, etc, increasing torque until you get to the desired stretch.

Leaving the gauge in place and using a 2 ft long wrench is asking for misery. It's also fairly dangerous.

I know what you'll say - taking the gauge off is inviting inaccuracy. But, once you do it a few times you'll realize the gauge is stable enough it is staying accurate.

I also don't agree that you need or want previously un-stretched bolts....if you torque and loosen those bolts five times you'll find they take a 'set' and eventually settle down to a repeatable stretch. That tells me their initial stretch, if that's all you do, is going to relax after a while.

Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: GregCon] #449454
08/12/10 03:57 AM
08/12/10 03:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,880
USA
Ron Silva Offline OP
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Ron Silva  Offline OP
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Quote:

I have torqued lots of rod bolts and I think you are doing it the hard way.

Here's my routine, if you want it, keep reading!

1)Lube liberally all surfaces that touch any other surfaces, not just the threads, with ARP lube. It makes a difference in both torque and stretch stability values.

2) Use your dial gauge to measure length with no torque.

3) Remove the gauge, set it aside carefully.

4) Torque the bolts up to about 70 lbs in 10 lbs increments, swapping sides each time. Use a high quality 1/2 drive torque wrench.

5) Recheck length with gauge and then remove, etc, increasing torque until you get to the desired stretch.

Leaving the gauge in place and using a 2 ft long wrench is asking for misery. It's also fairly dangerous.

I know what you'll say - taking the gauge off is inviting inaccuracy. But, once you do it a few times you'll realize the gauge is stable enough it is staying accurate.

I also don't agree that you need or want previously un-stretched bolts....if you torque and loosen those bolts five times you'll find they take a 'set' and eventually settle down to a repeatable stretch. That tells me their initial stretch, if that's all you do, is going to relax after a while.




I 100% agree with you as long as you measure EACH bolt as you go. I in fact did a variation of what you say on a couple of mine. Two or 3 times I got just shy of the desired .006-.0064 and to get a small movement and get another .0002 or .0003 is extremely hard with my makeshift wrench. So I would remove the gauge and use a long breaker bar with a socket to turn the bolt another couple degrees and then remeasure.

I have no problem removing and reinstalling the gauge once or several times. It does repeat with very good results.

The PROBLEM I have is some Guys say they did one bolt your way and found that it took THAT BOLT 67 foot pounds to get the desired stretch, so they torqued them all to 67 foot pounds. There are so many variables that would not be the ideal way to do it.

To tell you the truth, all the methods above would "probably" not result in a failed fastener that often , if ever.

I only wanted new Bolts because of what was told to me by Ryan about those specific type bolts.

PS: I do not mind working hard and doing it the hard way if I feel it is the most accurate. That is why I do it the way I do. I watch every bolt stretch as it is happening and it is a struggle, but eliminates all the variables.


SRT DEMON ONE SEAT
Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: GregCon] #449455
08/12/10 04:28 AM
08/12/10 04:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,880
USA
Ron Silva Offline OP
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Quote:

I haven't read all the posts, and it's not my place, but aren't those headers very, very small in terms of collector diameter and length?




Those are merged collectors and you typically want a lesser difference between the primary tube size and the collector outlet or what is called the pinch. After the pinch you will have a megaphone or a tapered cone up to a normal bigger size. Those headers are 2-1/8" primaries (at the collector) and the pinch is 2-1/2 or 2-3/4" and then it goes back up to 3" and then it goes up to 3-1/2" right after the V-Band ring (in the secondary exhaust). Since this is an A-Body and I have 2-1/8" primaries the collector placement was very critical just to get them to fit and give me any kind of ground clearance. I ended up adding a couple inches of 3" just to get the pinch to align with the crossmember. As it is , it turned out very well.

Here is a pic of the smaller header collectors that were on the Crate motor I just took out of the car. You can see the pinch and then the cone bringing it back up to 3-1/2" just past the V-Band clamp. Those headers have a 1-7/8" primary at the collector. You can see how tight everything is and keep in mind the primaries on the 501 headers are a Quarter inch bigger X 4!

6135928-MVC-020S.JPG (268 downloads)

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Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: Ron Silva] #449456
08/12/10 04:28 AM
08/12/10 04:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,880
USA
Ron Silva Offline OP
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2

6135929-MVC-024S.JPG (294 downloads)

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Re: ONE DOWN , ONE TO GO ! [Re: Moparnut426] #449457
08/12/10 04:39 AM
08/12/10 04:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,880
USA
Ron Silva Offline OP
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Quote:

Whats it look like in the car? The front 2 tubes must go under the K member? Hows the starter clearance, Do ya have to remove any tubes to get it out?

Kasey




Kasey, I will try to eventually get you a pic of the headers in the car. Maybe after they are coated. I did not look specifically with starter removal in mind at that header. I did decide to keep the tubes farther away from the starter than last time so I think it might be possible to remove the starter. Maybe you might have to remove just one top tube section or possibly drop the lower section and leave the top tubes. To tell you the truth, it was never a concern of mine because I can remove the header in about 20 minutes and that includes jacking the car up in the air a couple feet and placing it on Jack stands.

Yes, BOTH sides, 2 tubes go through the K-Member. Those headers are pretty much a copy of the Crate motor headers. Here is a pic of the crate motor headers. Sorry it is not that good..

6135936-MVC-007S.JPG (254 downloads)

SRT DEMON ONE SEAT
Re: ONE DOWN , ONE TO GO ! [Re: Ron Silva] #449458
08/12/10 08:11 AM
08/12/10 08:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 798
Houston TX
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GregCon Offline
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OK,thanks for clarifying the headers.

Yes, I use the method I described on each bolt.

Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: Ron Silva] #449459
08/12/10 09:42 AM
08/12/10 09:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,067
Orlando Florida
blown572dart Offline
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Orlando Florida
Nice

Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: blown572dart] #449460
08/12/10 11:14 AM
08/12/10 11:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,880
USA
Ron Silva Offline OP
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I wanted to give my first impressions of the new motor. One of the reasons I did not realize I had the #1 and #3 plug wires crossed is because it started right up and I EXPECTED a radical idle based on the cam specs. I was a little peeved when I first saw the cam specs because I did not really want a radical idle. Now I am glad I did not say anything, so I did not have to eat any crow.

Well, this motor is quieter AND smoother than the 406 crate motor. The carb is all messed up because I had the plug wires crossed and was cranking on it to get it to idle. But once I get it dialed, I expect this engine to idle surprisingly smooth. Once I static timed it the second time , it ended up being dead nuts on 35 deg timing so I left it there, but once I switch it to the crank trigger I will probably set it at 32 and call it good. LOL

The valvetrain is quiet and I am pretty happy about that. Can you say 9.90's with a hydraulic cam! Woohoo!

I only drove it over to Sloan's house yesterday (about 1 mile) and then about 5 more miles and I was taking it easy. The Rod bearing clearances were just a hair tighter than I like so I did not want to stand on it right away even though I know it is probably better for the rings. It drives quite a bit like the crate motor (which is also a hydraulic roller cam), moves away from a light a little easier, seems to really want to wake up if you goose the throttle. Right now I have the Race Demon RS Carb on it straight off the crate motor, BUT I have a brand new Quick Fuel Technology, Race Q 950 to go on it when I get around to it. I also have to make a new set of plug wires because of the taller Valve Covers. I was not expecting that and a couple of those wires are TIGHT going over the VV covers.

ALSO, UGH, I have to change the trans before I race it. Dave did not have any billet input shafts when he built this trans for me and so I will have to do something about that before I hit the track. He has my spare right now and I am going to light a fire under him to get it back. It's just as well, because I will be pulling the headers to get them coated and can do it then.


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Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: Ron Silva] #449461
08/12/10 11:26 AM
08/12/10 11:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,688
W. Kentucky
justinp61 Offline
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W. Kentucky
Ron, I have to give you credit, everything you do is first class .

Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: justinp61] #449462
08/12/10 11:28 AM
08/12/10 11:28 AM
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Posts: 26,019
United Socialist States of Ame...
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tboomer Offline
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Looks great!! Very nice work and it paid off!


Need your rear end checked out? Contact Grizzly!!
Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: Ron Silva] #449463
08/12/10 12:26 PM
08/12/10 12:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ Offline
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State College, PA
Quote:

I wanted to give my first impressions of the new motor. One of the reasons I did not realize I had the #1 and #3 plug wires crossed is because it started right up and I EXPECTED a radical idle based on the cam specs. I was a little peeved when I first saw the cam specs because I did not really want a radical idle. Now I am glad I did not say anything, so I did not have to eat any crow.

Well, this motor is quieter AND smoother than the 406 crate motor.




LOL it's FIVE HUNDRED inches... what may look like a radical cam in a 340/360 or even a 416 4" crank motor is tame in a 500. I'm glad the lifters are not too noisy... I've had hyd rollers before that can be obnoxious, looks like Glenn got them right.

Re: ONE DOWN , ONE TO GO ! [Re: Ron Silva] #449464
08/12/10 01:53 PM
08/12/10 01:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 242
Upland, California
Spode Offline
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Upland, California
Quote:

Engine was born at 4:30 PM California time today.




I think I heard the fire up all the way at my house

Congrats great project and thanks for the detailed thread.

Re: ONE DOWN , ONE TO GO ! [Re: Spode] #449465
08/12/10 02:33 PM
08/12/10 02:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 498
El Dorado Ca
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65signet Offline
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El Dorado Ca

Get the new trans in and bring the car to Sacramento next month, i will take some pics with the wheels in the air.


1965 Plymouth Barracuda 273 M/SA
1970 Plymouth Duster 360/904 10.60s with J heads
Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: Ron Silva] #449466
08/12/10 02:56 PM
08/12/10 02:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578
sweden
1
1Fast340 Offline
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sweden
congrats!

Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: 1Fast340] #449467
08/12/10 04:20 PM
08/12/10 04:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,915
APACHE JUNCTION AZ
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Joesixpack Offline
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APACHE JUNCTION AZ
Looks great! Went back and read every single post, the thought process,innovation,preperation&execution involved
in this 500 cube engine sorta reminded me of NHRA Pro Stockers evolution from small cubic inch engines to 500, and there progression since...It looks like many things that you guys did mirror what the Pro Stock set live by...i bet that thing will have a monster torque curve,pretty flat...pretty tight...and not much drop off during the 1-2 and 2-3 shift....very impressive..

Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: justinp61] #449468
08/12/10 04:28 PM
08/12/10 04:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,085
Indiana
W5Duster436 Offline
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Quote:

Ron, I have to give you credit, everything you do is first class .




Ditto!


'70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone)
'71 Dodge D100
'70 Dodge W100
Re: It's FINISHED! [Re: W5Duster436] #449469
08/12/10 04:52 PM
08/12/10 04:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 527
alaska,usa
9
9secondsatellite Offline
mopar
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 527
alaska,usa
once again that is totally awesome. 501 cid small block. can hardly wait to see some vids of it running and to hear it. still would like to know what brand vacuum pump that is.

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